By Anuj Kumar 

Published on 26th July, 2017, in The Hindu

In the post truth world, does mythology matter? Always keen to explain myths, Devdutt Pattanaik is eager to take that. “Mythology was there before truth existed. In fact, truth is a western religious concept coming from Judeo-Christian tradition. It seems static while knowledge is expanding all the time. The binary way of thinking is a western model. We are a land of metaphors,” counters the prolific author, adding that he never justifies mythology. “Justifying is like selling and that is the space of evangelism.” The danger is, he continues, that now we are becoming binary. In shastarth, he reminds, one doesn’t have to win the argument because such a thought feeds ego. “For example, why do you disagree when I say it is sweet,” he points towards his glass of fresh lime soda. “Has your tongue been designed differently? That’s interesting, because new knowledge will come out of it,” Pattanaik casually brings his love for symbolism to the table at Varq, the popular restaurant of the Taj Mahal Hotel.

Known for its innovative Indian dishes, we have a trio of fish, chicken and lamb galouti to start with. “We are trying to make Hinduism singular,” he underlines. It seems some are in competition with monotheistic traditions. “Yes, when you have inferiority complex, you compete. When you have atma gyan, you don’t contend,” avers Pattanaik, who has just come out with My Hanuman Chalisa (Rupa), where he explores the popular religious work.

“I was thinking of writing about Hanuman and was looking for an anchor.” Of late, he has been interested in the idea of darshan. “Darshan usually means only images but what if I do darshan of a piece of literature.” The idea spurred at the British Museum, where they have a section called the history of world in hundred objects —the idea of taking a tangible thing to understand the intangible. “People are familiar with Hanuman Chalisa but still many are unfamiliar because we don’t do darshan of what we chant or recite.” Darshan, he explains, is about moving from sight to insight. “At one level Tulsidas’s choice of Awadhi words excites me, at another it tells us about our culture and civilisation,” says Pattanaik, adding wisdom doesn’t necessarily come from Sanskrit texts.

“Tulsidas popularised the idea of Hanuman. This is how knowledge spreads in India. There is no idea of church. It just happens organically. Somebody who feels like shares it with people.” Like he has done it now…. “This is a leap from words to a larger idea. The doha begins with char phal. Does it literally means four fruits? Of course not! The char phal are four goals of human existence: dharma, artha, kama, moksha. Or why does Ram is called tapasvi raja. How can a raja be ascetic? It is not a random collection of words, it has a beautiful melodic arc that takes you to the idea of moksha.”

Pattanaik is fascinated by the simplicity of the Hanuman story and the plurality that he symbolises. “The whole idea that a servant — Ram dasa — can become god is something. It reflects that god is in everybody. There are temples where he is a dasa and then there are temples where he stands alone. Pehle hanuman phir bhagwan, it is almost like that.”

Pattanaik says Hanuman’s appeal lies in the fact that there is nothing complex about him. “He is popular among Shaivities, Vasihnavites and he is followed in Vedic as well as Tantric tradition. He provides an easy way to explore the mythological space.” We tend to forget that Hanuman is janeu wearing warrior, a poet and a musician as well. “His father is not a Brahmin. It makes us contemplate on the value of effort and aptitude. The monkey creature of forest has Vedic gyan. When Ram meets him for the first time, he speaks Sanskrit. Later when the situation demands he speaks to Sita in Prakrit. So he is adaptable — both in form and thought.”

Teaching metaphors

The biggest problem in life, says Pattanaik, is to teach people metaphors. “We live in the world of engineering while our scriptures are about symbols. We talk through gestures. Even gods play dumb charades.” Isn’t it getting too imaginative? “No, there is a very famous Hanuman image called tamacha Hanuman where the hand of the deity is not in the form of blessing but more like a slap. “It is popular in Karnataka. We don’t know whether it is deliberate or an artist’s mistake but it provokes conversation.”

Like how over the years mythology has become an archaic thought…. Pattanaik smiles at the provocation. “The British used the word religion for monotheistic traditions and they used mythology for mocking at polytheist traditions. They didn’t realise there is mythology of one god and there is mythology of no god as well. What is the world without a god — it is a world where Buddha becomes an icon for a spa. Now we have a Buddha bar. This is what the world of no god does to Buddha. And we are not supposed to get offended or cry. Which one is better — mythology of more gods is at least plural,” he muses.

As the main course — murg sirka pyaz, paneer anardana — arrives, the discussion shifts to how food is an important part of faith. “When Shiva says he doesn’t want food, the Goddess disappears. Food doesn’t differentiate between Brahmin and Shudra; humans do. Philosophy of food is big in India,” says Pattanaik, who writes about food in metaphorical terms. Every god is offered some specific items. Pattanaik says he doesn’t know the reason but there is a pattern to it. “Hanuman is offered til oil, urad dal — high protein diet. He is also offered leaves of arka plant which are poisonous. Shiva is offered bel fruit and dhatura.

Many of these fruits grow in the wild which match their personality. Shiva is a mendicant, Hanuman is monkey god so he is found in the forest of bananas, which is metaphorically the land of women where only a brahamachari (celibate) like Hanuman could enter.”

Pattanaik has written extensively about bhog, the offering to gods. “All gods are foodies. Ganesha likes sugarcane, Krishna has ghee, butter and other processed food and Goddess wants blood. In Delhi, at Kal Bhairav Mandir, you have to offer liquor.” As one pokes him that some find this ritual atavistic, Pattanaik says that they are missing the symbolism behind it. “Indians are not foolish people. They know stones can’t eat. These are ritualistic performances which are meant to give you atma gyan. In a birthday cake you blow out a candle and spit on it. Is it logical? But we do it because we feel loved and happy. Rituals are like that. They are not designed to be logical. I can eat without this cutlery as well but this performance enhances the experience of the palate.”

Published on 31st July, 2017, on https://aarohpalkar.wordpress.com/

With a total of 30 books on his portfolio and 600 columns published by major news outlets, Mr Devdutt Pattanaik shows no signs of stopping.

A former medical professional by trade, Mr Pattanaik considers studying and writing about mythology his true calling. Mr Pattanaik’s known worldwide for writing best sellers such as My Gita, Sita: An Illustrated Retelling of the Ramayana, Jaya: An Illustrated Retelling of the Mahabharata, and 7 Secrets of Shiva to name a few. He’s also written books on Management namely; Leader: Insights from Indian Mythology, The Success Sutra: An Indian Approach to Wealth, and The Talent Sutra: An Indian Approach to Learning to name a few.

Mr Pattanaik’s also hosted two shows on CNBC-TV18 & CNBC Awaaz called Business Sutra & Shastraarth respectively. He frequently works as a consultant for Star TV and hosts Devlok with Devdutt Pattanaik on Epic Channel.

In this interview, Mr Pattanaik discusses his childhood, his writing process, his recently launched book my Hauman Chalisa, and much more.
1. What was your childhood like, and was there any particular catalyst in those formative years that helped you generate this interest in mythology?

It was a regular suburban upper middle-class upbringing where the focus was on education and establishing a good career. I had a very regular, stable, unimpressive childhood with two sisters and parents who loved us and each other very much. Today, I realise how privileged I was. We were not particularly religious. And like all children of that time read Amar Chitra Katha and Chandamama comics through which we accessed mythology.

I guess I had a natural inclination for religion, folklore, fantasy and philosophy, and my parents never stopped me from buying books: everything from the Art of Boris Vallejo to the Bhagavatam by Kamala Subramaniam. It’s only after I completed Medicine that my interest in mythology became intense and serious, as an escape from the world of healthcare, which I did not find particularly exciting.

2. Can you describe your writing process? And, how do you overcome writer’s block, if you go through it that is?

I write every day in the morning till noon. It’s my daily routine. I write whatever comes to mind. A tweet. An article. A chapter of a book. An idea for a new book. I wish I exercised as regularly as I write. Then you would be healthier. Instead, I have to settle to be a prolific writer. I usually don’t suffer from writer’s block as I write on multiple topics and themes and so just go with whatever excites me at a time. Some days are great. Others terrible.

3. Your latest book My Hanuman Chalisa — wherein, you interpret the verses in contemporary language for the modern readers — released this month, So, my question is, why Hanuman Chalisa?
My Hanuman Cover

It is about paying attention to a prayer that is common amongst most Hindi speaking Hindus. It is chanted often but do we know what are we chanting? Who wrote these words? And what connection do these verses have to Puranas and eventually the Vedas? It helps us realise how Hindu thought reached the masses since Hinduism does not have a tradition of preachers and missionaries. Wisdom reached through story and song.

4. What according to you is more difficult; writing a mythology for children or writing one for adults?

I really do not see the difference. With children, you have to be more clear, more directive, more simple. And so it helps us unravel complex themes. With children, I use many more themes and weave them into a wider, more intense, fabric. I try not to make philosophy binary and simplistic for children as I feel children can handle complexity. For example, Sita makes choices. Not always. And not all choices work out. So what does that mean? Is choosing good or bad? Why do we say a choice is good or bad? Children need to reflect on these ideas so that they become responsible adults. We must not give them ridiculous wishful ideas like good actions result in good reactions.
5. Your current bibliography contains only one fiction novel i.e. The Pregnant King. Any plans for writing more fiction books in the future?

Yes, hopefully, next year. I have written a short story though which is fiction, ‘Is he Fresh?’ published by Tehelka. Some young people want to make it a short film.

6. You’ve written a total of thirty books on mythology. What character, in your mind, stands out from the rest?

Ram actually because everyone is so eager to vilify him without actually appreciating the complex structure of the epic. It reveals the vast gap between the Vedic transmitter and the modern receiver.

7. In today’s era filled with so many injustices, tragedies, and sorrows, whose ideologies would be better suited to solve these issues, Ram or Krishna?

Justice is a Greek concept. And they did not believe in equality. Justice was about keeping everyone ‘in their place’ – destroying hubris of man who seeks he can be god. In Greek mythology, some people are special as they are children of gods. Rest are mediocre. Equality as a concept comes from Christianity. We are now conditioned to see the world through the Greco-Christian lens that we assume is rational and real but is actually simply a Western discourse. The world is what it always has been: full of predators and prey, eaters and eaten, rich and poor, kind and cruel people. Our suffering comes from assumed benchmarks and technology that is designed to benefit one tribe at the cost of the other. And so industrialisation benefits the West and destroys the old feudal order, but replaces it with a new class of the economically and politically privileged. Nothing really changes. At least that is the traditional Indian lens. Ram and Krishna are not ‘superheroes’ who are seeking to make the world ‘a better place’. They are finite forms (avatar) of ‘infinity’ (ananta) showing us how to live in the world, at peace, no matter what the context and challenges.

8. What is the one consistent theme you’ve observed across all these mythologies?

Death and coping with death and so finding meaning is a consistent theme underlying all mythologies. In Greek mythology, meaning comes from achievement. In Abrahamic mythology, meaning comes from submission and alignment. In Indian mythology, from witnessing the world by empathizing with multiple points of view.

9. Can you tell us a bit about your upcoming projects?

I avoid talking about things that I am working on. Needless to say, they will all deal with mythology, and one will be a fiction.

10. For the readers who would like to connect with you on social networks can you tell them where and how to find you?

Go to my website Devdutt.com or find me on Twitter as well as Facebook via my handle ‘@devduttmyth‘.

Published on 2nd August, 2017, on www.gaylaxymag.com

Entrance with Guhyeshwori Temple in the background. (Picture from http://sajha.com)

When I was a small boy, I remember visiting Guhyeshwori Temple every time we visited Pashupati Temple with my parents. In fact it’s the other way around, my mother and grandmother usually visited Guhyeshwori Temple first then walked to the Pashupati Temple afterwards. Located around one kilometer east of the main Pashupatinath Temple, I was told that Guhyeshwari Temple was one of the revered holy temples in Kathmandu, Nepal. This temple is dedicated to Adi Shakti. This refers to the popular legend where Shiva, distressed, was carrying the corpse of Devi Sati and Vishnu annihilated it with his Sudarshan Chakra. Shiva later declared the 51 such places where Devi Sati’s body parts fell to be worshiped as the Shakti Peethas and meditated at all these places as various forms of Bhairavas. The place where Devi Sati’s knees fell is Guheswari in Kathmandu.

In Nepal, the form of Shakti is Mahashira and the form of Bhairava is Kapali. King Pratap Malla built this temple in the 17th century. More than the temple Pashupatinath and Guhyeshwari, and the main idols of these temples representing the Shiva and Shakti unity, I was struck by the vivid image of a life size Kinnara or Third gender and a Kankala or Skeleton, right at the entrance of the Guhyeshwari temple (you can find these images all across the Tantrik temples in Nepal, either at the entrance or on the temple wall-outside). I asked several people, “Who are they and why these images are here?” Not only did I not get any answer, but my questions made people really uncomfortable.

The Kinnar or Third gender is portrayed as having long unbound hair, has very dark skinned body except the face which is white, has fully grown-up female breasts and fully grown-up male genital which is erect, and the only thing she wears is a Bindi on her forehead. The Kinnar image is on the rights side of the entrance as you walk out of the temple, along with lord Ganesha. The life (or should I say the death) size Kankal or Skeleton is portrayed on the left side of the entrance along with lord Kartikaya. Interesting thing is that both of these images are next to big-wide open eyes on either sides of the entrance.

Close up picture of the gate (Pic source: Kamakhya Bhakt)

For many years I didn’t get any answers but during my recent conversation with Devdutt Pattanaik, I asked him the same decade old question: “Who are they actually and why these images are here? What are they trying to convey?” And I hear the most fascinating reply from him.

Devdutt Pattanaik’s Reply:

The Tantrik images are very fascinating. Perfectly aligns with Tantrik thought.

Tantrik texts and imagery starts appearing in South Asia in Buddhism and Hinduism roughly around 600 AD. During this time, society shifted in two different directions.

Gyana, which was highly intellectual and favoured celibacy and monasticism — essentially rejection of Nature (Shiva in Puranas)
Karma, which was focused on rituals and marriage and household duties — essentially control/domestication of Nature (Vishnu in Puranas)

Tantra embodied all that was being left out, rejected and denied. The raw power of nature. Its dark side. This attracted a whole school of thinkers, who were often identified as sorcerers and magicians. Lots of stories of war between celibate monks (often of upper caste) and sexual yoginis (often of lower castes).

Padmasambhava of Himalayan Buddhism comes from this tradition; he was born probably in Odisha. The Goddess plays a central role here. Here we find the ‘hidden’ aspect of life being brought to the forefront:

Death and Decay (Kankala)
Alternate Sexual beings (Kinnar/Kimpurusha)
Terror (Bhairava)
Dalits (Chandala)
Essentially all the Bhuta-ganas …… essential part of nature that no one likes: cockroaches, fleas, maggots, locusts, rodents.

These are typically associated with Goddess. She is offered food that the ‘mainstream’ gods avoid: lemon, chillies, blood.

Thus the world is acknowledged between those who deny nature, those who control nature and those who appreciate nature’s hidden (guhya) side that culture denies.

In the temple gate, we are forced to see (see the value placed on eyes) what we don’t want to see.

Her children (lord Ganesha and Kartikiya) reveal her power. She managed to get the super-celibate Shiva to give her children. Neither are born normally via sexual intercourse. This is triumph of nature/Goddess over three dominant aspects of culture/God (priestly Brahmin, royal Vishnu, ascetic Shiva).

Modern Western society wants to bring the “dark” aspects of nature in public space. This frightens many ordinary folk who react with violence.

Traditional society in South Asia acknowledged the queer but avoided bringing it to mainstream. They had their place in the margins, but were never completely rejected or denied.

Hope this answers your questions.

Thank you Devdutt for this insight!

Published on 24th September, 2017, in The Telegraph

Durga Puja is here and the whole of eastern India is all set for a week of festive fun. Could you tell us the most popular story of how Goddess Durga was created?

The gods were unable to kill an asura who had obtained a boon that he could not be killed by gods. So they were advised to release their individual powers and combine them to create a new creature, which turned out to be a goddess with many arms. Carrying the weapons of all the gods, she defeated the asura easily, for the asura who had sought protection from the gods had forgotten to ask protection from the goddess. This goddess is called Durga. She embodies “that with which we fortify (durg means fort) ourselves”.

Is Durga the same as Sati, Shiva’s wife? Who then is Kali?

In Hindu mythology, nature is the Goddess and the human mind is God. Goddess and God take many forms. Wild, untamed nature is Kali. Domesticated nature is Gauri. Nature who enchants Shiva and makes him give up his hermit ways and become a householder takes the form of Sati first and then Parvati.

Is Shakti another name for Durga? There is a difference, you have written….

At a raw level, yes. At a refined level, no. Shakti refers to our inner strength. Durga refers to strength we obtain from outside — weapons, instruments, fortresses, status, laws.

Why does Durga come to her paternal home with her children during autumn?

This is an eastern tradition, where the Goddess is seen as the daughter of the local king who is married to the distant ascetic Shiva. Though a princess, she chose to marry the hermit-god to make him a householder, for when Shiva marries and participates in household life, droughts and diseases come to an end, and the world is filled with auspiciousness and abundance (mangalyam, in Sanskrit).

After the rains, when the harvest comes, she visits her father’s house, where she is indulged with food and fun, before she returns to the house of the hermit-husband who is innocent and does not know how to do household chores or carry the burden of the household, which is why he is called Bholenath.
But why is she riding a lion and killing a demon?

Lion is the symbol of kings. Durga is the patron deity of kings. And so the worship of lion-riding Durga embodies royal power. Without her, a king is nobody. The demon embodies the king’s enemies who have their eye on the king’s throne, known as singh-asana, or the seat of the lion. It is a reminder to the king that the Goddess who gives him royal status can abandon him if he abandons dharma. For he is the lion, and she rides the lion.

What is Mahishasura’s story?

The demon who Durga kills is called Mahishasura as he is a shape-shifter and he is killed when he takes the form of a wild buffalo (mahisha).

To know more about the many goddesses of India, read 7 Secrets of the Goddess by Devdutt Pattanaik (Westland Books,
Rs 395)

What is the significance of Durga’s yellow complexion as seen on most idols in Bengal, as you have mentioned in your book 7 Secrets of the Goddess?

The yellow colour reminds us that the Goddess is identified as haldi-mukhi or turmeric-faced. This makes her radiant as the sun. It connects her with gold, with the harvest, with lions, and all things mangala. This has to be contrasted with the white Shiva and the black Vishnu. Eastern India is greatly influenced by Jagannath of Puri, whose sister Subhadra is yellow-faced, drawing attention to an old temple mythology according to which Durga is Shiva’s consort and Vishnu’s sister.

Why is this puja called Akalbodhan?

Akalbodhan is based on a myth found in the Krittibasa Ramayana that is popular in Bengal. Traditionally, Durga was worshipped in spring, before the rains. This is Vasant-nava-ratri. But Ram invoked Durga after the rains, while launching an attack on Lanka. This “untimely invocation” or Akalbodhan led to the worship of Durga in autumn as Sharad-nava-ratri.

Why is Durga Puja celebrated in Bengal, Assam and Odisha with much bigger fanfare than in other parts of India?

Durga Puja is essentially a festival of kings and celebrated in all royal households across India. In Bengal, when kings were abolished, zamindars or landlord, or rather tax-collectors, appointed by the British functioned like kings and started worshipping Durga in their courtyards (bari, in Bengali). Image-building would start when the Rath-yatra would conclude in Puri’s Jagannath temple and the image made of riverbank clay would be dissolved in the river after the autumn worship, to remind us of the ephemeral nature of the seasons, and life. This festival became popular in the 18th century as a way of impressing the new overlords of the region, the East India Company. Eventually it became institutionalised and democratised as part of the Freedom Movement that sought to mobilise public participation in the society and break traditional boundaries of caste. Another theory is that zamindars adopted it from the Gosani yatras of the Thakurani (local goddess) shrines that surround the Puri Jagannath shrine.

— Samhita Chakraborty

Published on 21st April, 2018, on www.sundayguardianlive.com

By Latha Srinivasan

In this interview with Latha Srinivasan, author Devdutt Pattanaik talks about the central role mythologies play in shaping societies, and how liberal values can be derived from tradition.

Devdutt Pattanaik is more than an author who writes on mythology—he is someone who has skilfully shown us how mythology has an impact on modern-day society, governance and management. But he is also a stellar storyteller who has shown us how myths and folktales are timeless and connect with our values and belief systems.

Q. Over 40 books and counting. What keeps you motivated as a writer?

A. That this is just a drop in the ocean called mythology that few have explored. I have currently just covered Hindu mythology. And Greek mythology. There is Buddhist, Jain, Abrahmic and world mythology that awaits coverage. Also, writing for different audiences excites me: if Jaya is for adults, then I needed to write Boys who Fought for children. If Business Sutra is for management students, then Shikhandi And Other Queer Tales They Don’t Tell You is for the LGBT community.

Q. How important is Indian mythology? And how much relevance does it have today?

A. All mythologies are relevant as they are timeless and help us appreciate the human condition. Lazy minds often confuse mythology with history. Mythology reveals how people make sense of their world and transmit their worldview to their children using stories, symbols and rituals. It is all about faith and belief and assumptions, which applies to all communities, past and present.

Q. There seems to be a conscious drive from your end to educate Indians on mythology.

A. The world, actually. But let us begin with Indians as we are most receptive to the power of mythology and do not confuse, like the West, mythology for history. The West refuses to admit that its worldview is shaped by Greek and Christian myth. The Chinese refuse to admit that their worldview is shaped by Taoist and Confucian myth. We are comfortable admitting that the Vedas and Puranas shape our worldview. People need to understand they live in epistemological paradigms (that’s academic jargon for worldview) and we reveal this through stories we tell and rituals we follow and symbols we create.

Q. You have stated that the right wing pretends the LGBTQ community doesn’t exist, though Hindu mythology incorporates them. Why do you think homophobia continues to exist in the 21st century?

A. Homophobia or violent exclusion of queer people is a tribal behaviour. Tribes love homogeneity. The different is either rejected or accepted as a shaman who connects the tribe with the other world. So in many tribal cultures, the shaman was queer. Our world which drifted towards globalisation is now swinging in the opposite direction of tribalism. We are finding valour in rejecting contamination. Discourses that celebrated diversity are being replaced by discourses that celebrate purity. Hence the rejection of LGBTQ community in many right-wing groups. We must not forget that the earliest rejection of queer people (Pandaka in Pali), denying them ordination, is found in Buddhist rules for monks (Vinaya Pitaka) composed nearly 2,000 years ago. Our desire for purity and our assumption that heterosexuality is natural (it is not as any study of animal and plant kingdom will reveal) results in a moral rejection of queer behaviour.

Q. You have beautifully connected myth and management. What are the top five business sutras according to you?

A. 1) Where there is hunger there is the market.

2) All products and services seek to give humans satisfaction and significance.

3) Collaboration demands hearing, reframing and then speaking.

4) It is the powerless, not the powerful, who crave for power.

5) Critical thinking without critical empathy is a dangerous thing.

Q. Do you think every organisation should have a Chief Belief Officer?

A. I don’t think every organisation should have a Chief Belief Officer. Where did you get that information from? My role at Future Group had no KPI or KRA. We created this designation to create a buzz in the corporate world so that people question their worldview and appreciate that frameworks that work in Europe and America and China need not work in India because Indians look at work and life differently. In fact, there is no one India—there are multiple Indias, each with its own worldview. Our inability to respect these various worldviews is creating a great crisis, not just economic and political but also psychological.

Q. How important are women in mythology? How much do we celebrate them?

A. Women are 50% of humanity. Naturally, they are integral to mythology. But most written myths we have are composed by men for men. We must remind ourselves of that and seek out oral narratives of women, their own rituals and symbols that reveal a different side of humanity. We don’t need to “celebrate” women. We need to simply acknowledge them and their role. To “celebrate” them is to fetishise them.

Q. Given that so many diverse belief systems exist, is there anything that unifies them?

A. All belief systems reveal human ambition and anxiety, a fear of the other, yet a yearning to be respected by the other. Even the most rational of human beings who imagines he does not live in myth seeks certainty, rhythm and order. Yet, nature need not follow human rhythm and order. In fact, human culture is all about destroying natural order and imposing a human order on it.

Q. Can the secular and the religious co-exist in India peacefully?

A. Secularism is just mythology without God or gods. It is a mythology that seeks to harmonise different belief systems or a mythology that seeks to create a “rational” belief system independent of religious belief systems, through consensus. Like all myths, it assumes it is logical and fair. If monotheism respects only one god, modern secularism respects no god. Ancient Indian secularism meant respecting all gods and so the ancient kings of India always respected people of every faith and contributed to the well-being of Buddhists and Jains and Brahmins, and contributed to all local deities. This is secularism through plurality. Incidentally, modern secularism was created by Protestant Christians who “protested” against the Catholic Church’s control of the state.

Q. Trolls have become increasingly vocal on social media. How do you deal with them?

A. I mute them on Twitter and Facebook. It reveals the rage of people who feel unsuccessful, helpless and invalid. Politicians cleverly exploit them.

Q. What would you say to your critics?

A. Nothing. Everyone is entitled to their views. All views are based on limited knowledge ultimately.

Q. What are you looking forward to in 2018?

A. Happiness. Meaning.

PC: Harpreet

Published on 8th July, 2018, in The Hindustan Times

By Jamal Shaikh

1. Devdutt, tell us: what’s the hardest part about narrating a mythological tale?

Creating a seamless entertaining and engrossing narrative that aligns perfectly with philosophy.

2. How important are facts in mythology?

Facts are everybody’s truth. Fiction is nobody’s truth. Myths are somebody’s truth. We can be quite sure that a particular story or idea comes from a particular Hindu text, but we can never be sure of its date. For me, Krishna is God. Is God a fact or fiction? Is belief fact or fiction? Who decides? The devotee or the historian?

3. Given the strong connect of mythology with religion, does one have to be more careful about sensitivities?

In the 19th century, colonial powers used religion as synonym with monotheism and truth while polytheism was mythology, hence falsehood, and atheism was heresy. In the 21st century, following the popularity of atheism amongst intellectuals, scientists and academicians, monotheism/religion is also categorised as mythology. Mythologists, however, have always seen atheism, monotheism and polytheism as three different world views, populated either by no god, one god or many gods. Religion today is mythology corrupted by politicians (who are always overly sensitive when it suits them) while mythology is religion liberated by wise sages.

4. Which is the funniest mythological tale you’ve ever heard? And the most unbelievable?

That ‘actually’ God is male. That ‘actually’ peacocks don’t have sex. That ‘actually’ ancient India had aeroplanes and plastic surgery, but no homosexuality!

5. Finally, you’re quite active with opinion on Twitter. How do you handle trolls and fans?

I prefer fans focusing on my work rather than me personally. It’s a good ego boost when they acknowledge me or cheer me but ego is a dangerous thing, as we all know. I love trolling trolls. They feel validated and superior, for a few moments. It’s my social service.

Picture Credit: Harpreet Singh

Published on 10th September, 2018, on sabrangindia.in

1. The Supreme Court, in its September 6 verdict on Section 377, has decriminalised same-sex activity. What do you think of this order?
It was long overdue. How can sex between consenting adults in private be criminal? It revealed a perverted mindset from the Victorian era and denied the Indian principle of ‘kama’ or pleasure as a key aspect of human existence.

2. You are known for your works on Indian mythology. You also describe yourself as a homosexual. How do these two contexts, generally perceived to be controversial by average Indians, interplay?
Homosexual is what I am. Indian mythology is what I do. Controversy exists only in minds of people who wish to control what others are and have to do, as they are not at peace with who they are and what they do. Life is about working in ecosystems that can be simultaneously nourishing and hostile. Ask any tree in the forest.

3. The struggle for LGBT rights has been going on for decades. What is it that worked this time and was missing previously?
Wisdom on the part of judges as ensured commitment to what is decent in our Constitution. And the presence of humans in front of the judges, from older gay couples to young IIT students, who openly declared that they were being denied the right to love. The previous cases were relatively more abstract and on principle, from what I gather. Struggle is good. It helps us clarify what matters and what does not.

4. Isn’t it ironic that spiritual leaders from different religions came together to oppose gay rights, even though on other matters they are always at loggerheads?
Not all spiritual leaders. Just as all judges of the Supreme Court are not wise (remember the horrific, disdainful, dismissive 2013 judgement), not all spiritual leaders are compassionate. Sex discomforts many people. In many religions, pleasure is the opposite of God. In Vinaya Pitaka of Buddhism, the queer ‘pandaka’ was not allowed to be ordained as he was seen as ‘hypersexual’. This idea that spiritual growth happens when one suppresses desire is a strong one in monastic orders that dominate world religions. In Hinduism, gods dance and sing and enjoy theatre, and sit on wings with lovers that are part of many festivals. The monastic and pleasure schools of Hinduism have always competed and complemented each other, but since British times the pleasure school has been eclipsed. Monastic orders by their very nature frown on beauty, song and dance. Such groups will always exist. That is the meaning of diversity – different views. Wisdom is enabling all to co-exist despite cantankerous debate.

5. How do you view secularism, atheism and hyper-nationalism? Is it correct to tag a secular nation like ours with a majoritarian religion?
They are all myths, subjective truth of a people who do not believe in something supernatural in the world and insist all things are material and measurable. Myths generally can be polytheistic, monotheistic and atheistic. In the 19th century, only polytheism was called myth, while monotheism was called religion. Some still use it in the same way, when they refuse to see the subjective nature of secularism, atheism, as well as hyper-nationalism, assuming they are scientific and logical. People are entitled to have different points of view. The point is how they engage with OTHERS who have different points of view. Secularists can be as mean as religious folk, atheists as theists, hyper-nationalists as hypo-nationalists, majority as minority, when they assume their point of view is the truth and good and everyone else’s point of view is falsehood and dangerous. The problem is the desire to be right, to win in a combat, rather than empathize and collaborate.

6. How do you differentiate among constitutional morality, religious morality and morality determined by multiculturalism? How are minorities affected?
No. In wisdom, we accept the other for who they are, and do not violate their being. It’s tougher than it sounds. We must be careful of turning the majority into villains and minority into victims. Homophobia is widely prevalent in majority and minority religions. The RSS as well as Muslim Personal Law Board have displayed it in their respective statements. It has nothing to do with being majority and minority, religious or cultural. It has everything to do with discomfort with difference, an indicator of low spiritual index.

7. What does Hindu literature, according to you, say about homosexuality?
Let’s not reduce India to Hindu, even though Hinduism is a useful ‘code’ to explain the uniqueness of Indian culture. Also, let’s not privilege literature in a predominantly oral culture. We need to look at ideas expressed in art and rituals too. We have of over 50 words for non-heteronormative genders and sexualities for the past 3000 years, since Vedic times, in Sanskrit, Prakrit and Tamil, revealing a rejection of binaries. Buddhists and Jains spoke at length about different kinds of bodies and attractions as they sought to filter out queer people from monasteries and privileged celibacy. There is reference to the queer in medical texts such as Charaka Samhita that sees, as in modern times, a range of genders and sexualities created by a woman’s red seed and man’s white seed. The ideas are not scientific, but they are based on logic, anchored in fluidity. There are observations on queers in the Kamashastra and Natyashastra. Temple art shows images of men intimate with men and women intimate with women. Sacred art where men and women, animals and plants, fuse to create queer creatures that are neither this nor that, a dominant theme in Hindu mythology. Puranic stories speak of men becoming women and women becoming men. The idea of karma that explains the complexities of existence and the absence of fixed entities and predictable outcomes and sees everything as manifest in nature and God (Krishna’s vishwarup in Gita). In the 15th century, Goswami Tulsidas’ Ramcharitmanas is a line spoken by Ram to Kakabhusandi, ‘Men, queers, animals, plants and animals are all equally desire to me when they approach me with devotion abandoning malice.’ (‘Nar, napunsak, nari, va jiva, chara-char koi; sarva bhav bhaj kapat taji, mohe param priya soi.’ – 7.87k)

8. Earlier you have said that you will marry your partner if laws are set in place. How does paranoia impact your personal life? How did you overcome it?
Did I? I must have been drunk or mischievous. I have been careful, as there are violent idiots around us. Never paranoid.

9. Though the law is supportive, social support could still be a challenge. How do you propose to overcome this challenge?
It has always been so in human history. I refuse to let the fantasy of a fairy tale ending or a fairy tale kingdom where all things are wonderful upset the reality of today, or transform today into a miserable cesspool. This is it. Life with all its imperfections. Some things change, some don’t. We do what we have to do in imperfection. The world was not perfect when we were born. It will not be perfect when we die. It will not even be better for all. This notion of ‘world is horrible, we have to fight, and one day we will win,’ popular in activist circles, is mythology best expressed in Abrahamic religions in the Book of Exodus, with tales of slavery and liberation.

10. The BJP government in 2015 led India at UN to vote against recognising homosexual couples. As per media reports, the government is now set to oppose same-sex marriages post the SC’s verdict. Your view, please.
Oh please. Congress and the Communists are hardly queer-friendly. Homophobia is widespread in Left and in Right and in Centre. I have witnessed homophobia in Brahmin families as well as Dalit families, Muslim families as well as Parsi families, Tamil families and Gujarati families. Belonging to a party or religion or geography does not automatically make you queer-friendly. Politicians do what wins them votes. Lets not demonise one over the other. It’s simple and convenient, but not accurate.

11. “Will I now get my rights?,” asked Aligarh professor Siras’ partner. His question certainly raises many other questions. What is your view?
He can now have sex in private with a new partner, a consenting adult, without feeling scared. We cannot change the past. Dwelling on it takes away attention from the present and future. We can always find narratives that establish our victimhood and the villainy of others. We can also find narratives that enable us to discover our heroism and our humanity. Choose the story that works for you. And if you feel you will solve every problem in the world in your lifetime, you are in for a rude shock.

12. A lot of brands are jumping on the bandwagon to celebrate the victory. Do you think they will walk the walk when it comes to their HR policies or do you think this trend is just a PR stunt that will end soon?
Some will. Some won’t. It is always the case. But there will be a general shift to the positive for the simple reason that it makes more economic sense. The rise of feminism helped many women, not all women. Life is never perfect.

13. This victory is just a step in a longer journey. What, according to you, should be the next step?
I personally never use combative words like victory and defeat. Life is life with things working in favour of you and things not working in favour of you. You negotiate through the forest avoiding the predator who seeks to consume you, and finding the prey or the pasture that you will consume. The next step always is looking within for happiness rather than outside for solutions. The former is within your control. The latter you can only influence.

PC: Harpreet Singh

Published on 19th October, 2018, in The Statesman

Interview by Manas Sen Gupta

Devdutt Pattanaik is undoubtedly one of the most authoritative names when it comes to interpreting Indian mythology. Apart from deliberating upon and discussing in detail the vast Hindu mythology, he has also simplified the complex books and epics connected to Hinduism, thereby bringing thousands of curious readers closer to an ancient and rich culture.

In an interview to thestatesman.com, Pattanaik explains the meaning of mythology, superstitious practices, Section 377, Sabarimala verdict and Ram Temple. He also reveals what to learn from ‘offence’.

Many equate ‘mythology’ to myth, as the dictionary definition goes. What do you think the word means? And why should we discuss Hindu religion in the context of mythology?

In routine use, myth is equated with fiction. However, academically, myth refers to a cultural truth expressed through story. In the 19th century, monotheistic religion was seen as truth, and polytheistic religions as false, hence myth. But today we consider monotheism as well as polytheism to be myth. By extension, even atheism is a myth, for that too is a cultural truth, of some people. Myth is what binds people together hence integral part of being human. Without it we cannot have tribes or nation-states or corporations. Mythology has two means. First, it is the body of stories, symbols and rituals that communicates a cultural truth. Second, it is the study of that cultural truth. All religions and ideologies, not just Hinduism, are discussed in the context of mythology, at least in academic and scholastic circles. Marxism is as much mythology as Abrahamism as Capitalism as Buddhism as Hinduism. Our prejudices locates one over the other.

Is there a difference between mythology and religion?

Religion essentially referred to monotheistic and essentially Abrahamic religions. It was pitched against polytheistic faiths that were called myths and atheistic faiths that were called ideologies. Today religion refers to people who believe that there are supernatural forces that shape our lives. But remember that justice and equality are also not natural phenomena, they are cultural concepts, cultural truths, hence myths, that shape our lives and society. Like all myths, we assume they are truth and should be universal.

The word mythology brings to the mind Greek, Hindu, Nordic, Egyptian, etc., but not Islamic or Christian. Are there no mythological elements in Quran and the Bible?

Well it does to all people who study mythology. We are still stuck in 19th century colonial understanding of these subjects. It is interesting you do not mention Capitalism and Communism or socialism when discussing mythology. That too reveals a refusal to acknowledge atheistic material ideologies as myth, and insisting they are fact, when they are in fact cultural fiction.

Offence, these days, is found in abundance. There are people who take offence at the drop of a hat. How do you manage to steer clear of the ‘extremely sensitive’ kind?

We have valorised and glamorised victimhood. And so to be valorous and glamorous you have to be a victim, and so get hurt. And so we want to be offended all the time. It’s the vocabulary of modern politics. People are offended by my work. And for me, that is ok. Its ok to feel offended, even when no one wants to offend you. It indicates an opportunity to grow up.

With Jaya and Sita you gave a scientific dimension to the numerous miracles that Ramayana and Mahabharata cite. Did you at any point feel concerned that such an attempt might not go down well with the staunch believers?

No, I did not. Maybe you saw ‘science’ in my writings. Science and logic are not the same thing. Indians tend to confuse logic with science. Science is about measurement and evidence. Science is logical but all logic is not scientific. My writings seek the logic of cultural truths. As I do not believe ancient people were stupid (as some modern ‘rationalists’ do). You seem to assume Hindus are like Christians and Muslims who feel scientific/rational things are at odds with matters of faith. Lets not use Western templates of religion to explain Hinduism. That is something Leftists and Rightists do all the time which is why both fail to understand India.

Women in ancient India always enjoyed a high position. The developments of today prove that the status of women has diminished tremendously. Do you think this marks the downfall of Indian civilisation? What do you think is the need of the hour to make the society more sensitive towards women?

That women enjoyed high position in ancient India is your assumption. In Vinaya Pitaka, the Buddhist manual for monks, they are seen as evil temptations who take monks away from dhamma. A woman’s desire was a dangerous thing in Jain and Hindu scriptures, to be managed with care. The past is more complex than we imagine. This simplistic assumption that past was good and the present is bad mirrors Abrahamic myth, Fall from Eden (bad past) and a yearning to Return to the Promised Land (good future), via a saviour, is a favourite narrative amongst Left and Right Wing politicians and activists.

Should we see Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, Ram as gods or should we see them as humans who were elevated to the status of gods?

Depends on how you define gods and humans. Based on your previous question, I sense you have a Western understanding of what gods should be – supernatural beings. In Hindu understanding, gods are states of consciousness. They embody various aspects of wisdom. Its interesting that your list of gods did not include female figures or figures like Ganesha and Hanuman, who are not quite ‘human’ in form.

What is your view on superstitious practices? Do you find any connection between mythology and superstitious beliefs?

Other people’s faith is often superstitious. Justice, for example, does not exist in nature. But many believe in it. Is that fact or superstition? Some people believe that gems and prayers will cure ailments. Others believe revolution will cure society. For me, it is the same thing. Faiths can be healing and harmful. We must be cautious of faiths that cause harm. These faiths can appear as gods, demons, or as doctrines like equality that seek to ‘develop’ tribal cultures towards modernity.

Who is a Hindu?

Anyone who seeks answers or solace through Vedas and Puranas.

“This religion is superior to everyone else’s”. “There is only one god and no other god.” These are what Abrahamic religions preach and practise. What is your view of religion in this context?

Everyone believes that. Capitalists believe Capitalism is the greatest doctrine. So do Communists. As do rationalists. It is the nature of myth to discredit other myths.

You have written a book on Hanuman – My Hanuman. That, as you said, was your interpretation of the Lord. An artist in south India created a Hanuman poster which became popular as ‘angry Hanuman’. Many felt that the interpretation was wrong. What is your view on that?

I never wrote a book called My Hanuman. I wrote a book called My Hanuman Chalisa. Clearly that was your interpretation of what I wrote. Is there anything in the world that is not interpretation? The assumption that there is a single absolute ‘truth’ outside ‘interpretation’ is a myth, assumed by monotheists, and many scientists.

Some politicians claimed that Internet was there at the time of Mahabharata. Isn’t this laughable?

Some people believe that once upon a time there was a world without inequality. Would you find that laughable? Politicians know how to get press coverage. Don’t underestimate their ability to manipulate you.

The fight for rights of entry of women of a particular age in the Sabarimala Temple was won after a hard fight. But as we see today, some women’s groups are challenging the Supreme Court verdict. How do we interpret religion in this light? Should there be political or judicial interference with it? And if Hindu religion prevents women from certain religious rites, ceremonies or places, is it not drawing a parallel with Abrahamic faiths?

The verdict was based on the value of equality and in doing so rejected the value of diversity. The more we try to homogenise society, in the name of justice, the more we destroy heterogeneity. That is the current trend. Destroying cultures because they don’t fit our mould of ideal society. It has a backlash in the form of Right Wing radicalism, that rejects homogeneity and one truth.

You have been criticised for My Gita. Some quarters have alleged that your interpretation is factually incorrect, questions your understanding of Sanskrit. What would you say to them?

I respect their opinion. But it is My Gita. Not theirs.

It has been after a long battle that Section 377 was struck down. Hindu religion has always embraced homosexuality as can be seen in various ancient books and the epics. What do you think went wrong over time?

You use the word ‘battle’ repeatedly. Violence is embedded in civilised speech today. Isn’t it? Section 377 was not struck down, it was read down. Hinduism did not embrace homosexuality – it acknowledged that it exists in nature and the wise are capable of including it. Hinduism never prescribes. It simply describes. In all times, homosexuality exists. In all times, the wise include the different, and the unwise don’t. Hinduism provides the path to be wise, but does not force you to follow it, in this life time. That is why it is called sanatan, timeless wisdom.

What are your views on Ram temple.

Temples come and go. Conflicts come and go. Atma witnesses the hysteria of aham.

Pattanaik was presented with a portrait of him done by The Indian Express Illustrator Suvajit Dey. (Express photo by Neeraj Priyadarshi)

Published on 27th October, 2018, in Indian Express

The latest edition of the Express Adda in New Delhi hosted author and mythologist Devdutt Pattanaik. In a discussion moderated by The Indian Express Literary Editor Pratik Kanjilal, Pattanaik talked about what’s making women speak out, the many Ramayanas and why religion is not an adversary of queer love.

On the #MeToo movement
In Hindu mythology, there is the fundamental idea of Matsya Nyaaya, the law of the fish. The crude English translation is jungle law — where the predator runs after the prey. There is nothing immoral about it because the predator is doing it for food, for sustenance, for survival. When the human starts to devour other human beings in order to indulge his sense of self, something has gone wrong. He has lost his humanity. And this is what has happened. Suddenly people are calling it out and saying that “we will not be prey to people who are devouring people”. And it is a psychological devouring, where I disrespect you, I disrespect your space, I disrespect your body. In fact, I disrespect you so much that I have turned you into an object. That’s the movement in philosophical terms. This is what the cry is about. You cannot violate me. You are devouring me, and this is unacceptable. I am another human being, I have boundaries and rules.

On action, reaction and the cycle of things
It’s a cyclical thing. The Jains have the concept of avasarpini-utasarpini, going up and down, good times and bad times, and therefore, you find a wave of ideas coming, as one idea leads to another. Like World War II forced people to acknowledge women in the workplace; they had to work in factories in many parts of the world. When the war was over, women were asked to go back home, and they were like, “no, we are not going back home”. And the world changed. Once that wave comes, and when you start talking about equality, people start talking about sexuality. So, one thing leads to another. Every action has a reaction. So, when insecure men behave in extremely pathetic ways, you do have secure women standing up and raising points. This will have consequences on relationships between men and women, relationships in power spaces, and what will be considered appropriate and inappropriate.

On Section 377, religion and queer love
It was December 11, which also is my birthday, in 2013, when I heard that Section 377 had been upheld and homosexuality has been recriminalised. I was devastated. I wept so much. It was the most heart-wrenching moment because I felt betrayed by the Indian state.
I like to let my work talk about it, but I went out of my way to write books about queer sexuality in the Indic traditions — Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism. Later, I wrote a book titled I Am Divine So Are You (2017), which spoke of how Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism are allies of queer sexuality, and not adversaries. And it was sponsored by the Church of Sweden. Religion is always somehow weirdly presented as an adversary of sexuality. There are whole bodies of knowledge that are being shoved aside by people and I am driven by the desire to get Saraswati out of the closet. Saraswati belongs everywhere, she has to flow everywhere. And I work really hard to make knowledge accessible.

On reaching out to a young audience
How do I contextualise mythology and contemporise it for a young person going to college who only has time for Instagram.

That’s my target market, because if I don’t talk to that generation, who do I talk to? And how do you make it cool without trivialising it. They are smart people, it’s just that the language is different. And you have to figure out a way of touching them, so that’s my challenge. So when I wrote about sexuality and my idea of feminism, it was based on my mythological knowledge. For me, everything comes from mythology. Mythology is the map of the human mind. So anything that exists in the human mind, I’ll find something in mythology.

On tradition vs modernity
Modern people invent tradition. Because modern people want to feel “liberal” and “modern”, they will construct a past that is conservative. And you see that in writings all the time. So Sita has to be this creature who has no voice of her own. But when you actually read the Valmiki Ramayana, you’ll be like, ‘this lady seems to have a voice’. In fact, there’s a dialogue where Ram says, ‘Whenever I ask her to do anything, she says ‘no’.’

Janakputri, Janaki, Maithili and Vaidehi — these are words to show a silent strength functioning alongside. It is not evoked when you see some of those television shows because they want crying, suffering women because that’s what gets you the TRPs. You want to see women as victims.

On Ramayana and the crisis of kingship
Ramayana is written with Ram as the protagonist, but it’s not really the story of Ram, it’s the story of a king and his journey. And good kings don’t have to be good husbands, as we do know. And that’s the mistake we make. We want to see Ram as a human. Ramayana and Mahabharata both deal with the crisis of kingship.

On our textual obsession and the many Ramayanas
There are many Ramayanas which are in the oral traditions in Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra and Odisha. Ramayana is complex, it’s a tradition. This textual obsession comes because of a Protestant mindset. The Protestants were the ones who said that the text is important and therefore, the printed Bible became important. This mindset was brought to India by the British. So, they also said the same thing, “let’s look at the original document”. They started teaching Buddha to the Buddhists.

On his journey
I am trained in medicine and worked in the pharmaceutical industry where in my free time I would read mythology. Before mythology made money, I had a day job. I am a structuralist and suddenly realised that what we call modern management and what is presented as a rational way of thinking is not rational at all, it is completely mythic. And we realised that what we call management by objective, which is the mainstay in IIM-Ahmedabad and several universities, is based on the Book of Exodus. Someone asked me to write something on it. I started writing and luckily, one of my friends who heard it, put it in the corporate dossier. I started publishing it and the articles became very popular.

On the dark hold of caste
If your heart is not opened, no law in the world is going to change the world. And this whole approach that through laws we’re going to change the world is an absurd idea. Laws domesticate the animal. It doesn’t turn the animal into human. Laws, and better laws, won’t create a better world. You have to be psychologically transformed. The caste system is a psychological problem. You have denied humanity to people. Jab kisiko tum paani nahin dete ho (when you deny people water), that is the end of humanity. That being said, it is a complex system which evolved over 3,000 years. Everywhere in the world, there is hierarchy. What makes jati dark and very strong is the notion of purity. This is really the dark side of Indian thought — ashuddh and shuddh. What is pure and what is impure? For instance, vegetarian food is today considered pure, non-vegetarian is considered impure, although the gods and goddesses were offered alcohol and meat all the time. Menstrual blood is impure, semen is pure. So, there is the politics of bodily fluids.

The jatis were designed around different vocations but certain vocations become impure, now that’s a problem. So the person who cleans your sewer, without whom the whole society won’t be able to function, has to be given the most dignity but he’s given the least dignity.

Available to buy now

On his new book
Shyam’s story is exciting because it’s a journey from the feminine world into a masculine world (Shyam: An Illustrated Retelling of the Bhagavata; Penguin). So the early part of his life is in the Bhagvata, where it is the mothers, the lovers, and the gopikas. It’s a journey from the world of women to the world of men, which is the Mahabharata, the Kauravas, the Pandavas and the Yadavas. It is a journey from butter and milk to blood. From love to property and dispute. It’s a very large life. It’s a lifetime. So, you have a god who is an infant, then a toddler. He is also a prankster, a lover, then he becomes a refugee, a husband, a father, a friend and an elder. He’s the old man who realises his children don’t listen to him — a god whose children don’t listen to him — who dies a lonely death, like Ram, alone in the forest. His entire life is incredible and I couldn’t find any book which told his story from birth to death.

PC: Harpreet Singh

Published on 24th October, 2018, on Thrive Global

By Apekshita Varshney

Devdutt Pattanaik, India’s beloved mythologist, who has made dense and obscure narratives and myths accessible to urban India explains in a two-part interview with Thrive Global India the relevance of Indian mythology at the workplace, why is it important to be purposeful, and how “looking inwards must balance the conquest of the outside world”.

TGI: What kind of lessons on handling stress, burnout and depression are hidden in Indian narratives?

DP: Indian mythology recognises that we are torn between desire for nourishment (kama) and fear of endings (yama). This is the source of anxiety, burnout, and depression. It recognises how we delude ourselves (maya) by comparing ourselves with others and feel alone and isolated despite being in a crowd, like Brahma who created the world to give himself companionship and freedom from fear.

TGI: But is Indian mythology relevant at the Indian workplace?

DP: It is relevant in all workplaces. Modern management is based on Western mythology and is objective based. It’s all about targets and tasks. It does not take consequence into consideration. Consequence, in other words karma, is the cornerstone of Indian mythology which is based on rebirth, action and reaction. All employers, not just Indian, can learn from Indian philosophy that human capital thrives not in a competitive battle ground (ranabhoomi) but in an enriching enabling performance stage (rangabhoomi).

TGI: So how different would our definition of ambition and success be if it were based on Hindu, Jain or Buddhist ideas?

DP: Why are you ambitious? Why are you seeking success? These are questions Indian philosophy asks. It does not promote ambition or success (artha) as good. It is part of existence, along with responsibility (dharma), fun (kama) and freedom (moksha). Also are we doing it to indulge our ego or to help others? The former denies us happiness by isolating us. The latter makes us happy and creates a great ecosystem.

TGI: A good ecosystem also develops by questioning the reason and purpose behind a task, yet, today, not all of us are purposeful in our lives. Should this be changed? If yes, why and how?

DP: Yes. We are more objective-driven. Achievement is a goal of life, in alignment with Greco-Roman thought. Or compliance, in alignment with Abrahamic thought. We have forgotten to contemplate on life, understand why we are hungry for things and for power and for attention, and we fear being alone or dominated or ignored. Looking inwards needs to balance the conquest of the outside world. Otherwise we will feel hollow, just consuming, never contemplating, addicted to the outside world, dependent on it.

TGI: But if the objective is to contemplate and align our material-intellectual-emotional needs, what are the ways to do it?

DP: Through empathy. We are often too focussed on ourselves and so lose sight of the larger picture, the whole world. We fail to see how everyone has problems. Only when we help others can we hope to get others to help us. Else we isolate ourselves, helping no one, helped by no one.

TGI: Does the western idea of ‘individualism’ play a role in pushing us to live more isolated lives? How do we overcome this?

DP: Western individualism is also isolationism. For the West, the opposite of individualism is tribalism. Indian thought is somewhere in between: we are individuals in a network of relationships, some positive and some negative. We are part of a tribe (caste/community) that exists in an network of other tribes. Here, relationship is the key. How we engage with the other determines the quality of our life.